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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote: :
LOL! RuPaul at the movies. None of my dreams are this funny! I think I read somewhere that oak trees were some sort of symbol of masculinity or masculine strength or something. My book didn't mention RuPaul, though. :) Hey, Wolf, have you thought of what to give him for the holidays? Not RuPaul, your friend. :) I'm trying to decide between something practical and something more ... emotional. --Panther oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
Well, you could always pull a Mulder and give him a "really cool key chain." This might especially work if there were a key on it. Key to your heart. [Too mushy?] Key to your car? I've read that if a guy lets you drive his car, it's like ... he's giving a part of himself. Don't know if you're like that. Do you ever let him use your car? Or drive it when you're in it? Never mind. It's a weird tangent. I'm pretty burnt out today. Not enough sleep. --Wolf oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
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[snip] Wolf, I realized that it probably wasn't fair to have you reveal your dreams and not let you see mine. [I shouldn't have laughed at the "RuPaul" thing, either.] This past weekend I had a pretty strange dream also. It was like some of my other 'portentous' dreams, which entail talking, wild animals [no Dr. Doolittle jokes, please]. Here it is: I was out in the middle of someplace where no house or other building was in sight. There was a fenced-in field. I was busily, carefully rebuilding a section of the fence. The posts were about 2 1/2 inches in diameter and the cross-wise pieces were about 6 inches wide and 8 feet long. All of a sudden, I hear a creaking noise from the distance of about a football field away. I turn and see my roomie, dressed like Charlton Heston in one of those Biblical epics, and what he is doing is using his bare hands to peel off the fencing from the posts. One by one. He collects a few pieces of fencing and places them in a huge rock-ring, like he's going to use them to build a campfire. Then he uproots one of the posts and, using a hatchet, splits it and hacks it up. He takes a couple of pieces over to the rock-ring and starts rubbing them together. Soon sparks erupt from the sticks and the fire is lit. I start to walk over to him to ask him what he thought he was doing - undoing all my work -- what gave him the right. But before I can get there, he uproots another post and holds it up like a walking stick and begins walking towards me. When we meet in the middle, I look in his eyes and see sparks or lightening or something. He doesn't really look like his normal self. He reminds me of somebody like Merlin. All of a sudden, a *huge* blue snake appears, coiling and spiraling itself around the walking stick. Then I hear his voice coming from the snake's mouth asking me a question. Even though I can't understand the snake's language, I know through a kind of telepathy that he's asking why I bother to re-build these fences. He points out that the wood is weak and old so they don't really serve the purpose. And there isn't anybody out there. So I follow him back to the campfire and add pieces of fences to it. The snake seemed to disappear or *become* the walking stick. We added the stick to the fire, which flamed higher until I had to look up to see the top of the flames. And that's it. Not quite as entertaining as RuPaul, but we have talking snakes... :) What do you think? --Panther oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo Date: Tues, 15 Dec 1998, 10:30 PM "Hey Jim, whatcha watchin'?" "Nothin' yet. Just surfing." "So, Jim, have you read any of the X-Files fanfic I gave you?" "Some of it." "Any of the Mulder/Skinner stuff?" "Well, I started some but lost interest. I decided I preferred to stick to Mulder/Scully." "Did the slashiness bother you?" "No, Sandburg. I told you that before. I can understand wanting them to get together. They do seem to feel a great deal of affection for each other. It's just that I don't think it's appropriate for a boss to have a romantic relationship with his subordinate. "I prefer a relationship that is more on an equal footing. Where they are sort of complementary as partners and socially equal. I think Mulder and Scully are like that." "What about the guys on The Watchman?" "Those guys are a lot like Mulder and Scully in that way. And they definitely feel a lot of affection for each other. So yeah, I can see the possibility of that kind of relationship between those guys." "So, Jim, have you ever had that kind of relationship with a guy?" "You mean a sexual one, Chief?" "Yeah." "Nope. Have you?" "No. .... Have you ever thought about it?" "Yes. ... Have you?" "Yes." "So... you just taking a poll, Chief? Or do you have a point?" "Just wondering... Find anything good on TV?" "Nah. I think I'll just pack it in." "Me too." oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998, 11:30 a.m. "Sandy, this will be my first Christmas in the States and I was thinking of having a little holiday get-together at my place Saturday evening. Just a few friends. Do you think you and Jim might want to join us?" "Wow, that's really nice, Megan. Thanks. I'll pass the word on to Jim and let you know." "Fine. Oh, I forgot, you can bring a date or an S O, whatever ..." "Oh. Well, I haven't really been dating lately, so I guess it'll just be me." "What about Jim?" "I don't think he's been dating much either." "No, I mean ... oh, never mind .... Well, just let me know." "Will do, Megan." oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
I have been following the love vs. friendship thread on WatchAD with great interest. Both Wolf and Panther have mentioned on this list that they are having feelings for their respective roommates. So, are either of you willing to tell us how your friendship developed into love and whether this love will turn into a "sexual" love? Tracy oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, tracy l wrote:
I'd like to add to this thread but I'm hesitant to do so for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I am *so* not able to pin these terms down and define them. Considering that I never thought I'd apply some of these terms to a relationship with a guy, [not that I thought I wouldn't, just that I had never thought about it] you can imagine how this messes with my previous conceptions and definitions. Also, I can't be too specific in describing our relationship because I need to protect our privacy. That's why I use an ISP which allows aliases and protects against 'finger' searches. That's also why I haven't told the list the name of my city and have been careful not to name my roommate. As much as I feel warm feelings for my listsibs, especially those who have given me so much support in all this, I have needed to protect us against accidental discovery. It would not be safe for either of us if the wrong people found out about my feelings. That said, I'll try to answer Tracy's questions. At first, I would say that what I felt was a kind of hero-worship that I developed quickly due to his amazing talent. [No, not *that* kind of 'talent,' you slash sluts ;)] Also, I think I looked up to him like a big brother or father figure. I never had a father or a brother so I really felt that was lacking. He knows so much, has been through so much in his life. I think we began sort of bonding because we needed each other. We depended on each other, but for different things. But then, we started just doing more things together, spending more time having fun together. We just flat out enjoy each other's company. It has been sort of an evolution so that one day I realized that really he had become my family, my home. There is a way in which we've already 'become one.' It's in little things: We get ready to go somewhere, and if he grabs his jacket, he hands me mine. It's like his-coat/my-coat are one coat. He starts to pour coffee and fills my cup too. My cup and his are one cup to him. Once he wanted me to feel the finish on something, like a piece of furniture, and he held my hand and guided it along. His hand and mine were one hand. Sometimes when we walk down the street, we walk shoulder to shoulder, my entire upper body staying in contact with his. We move like one person. I love him for a multitude of reasons -- his intelligence, sensitivity, sense of humor. He's very down to earth. He's protective of me without being condescending. And he really *sees* who I am and still likes me. The relationship has not become a sexual one. I haven't even told him that I'm "in love" with him. I'm still trying to figure out when the right time would be and what words would be the right ones for making that revelation. And I'd be nervous no matter what he said. If he says he *is* interested, then the whole sex issue makes me really nervous and if he isn't interested in me, then we'll be pretty awkward for a while and we'll lose that easy closeness we've developed. So there it is. I don't think I've pinned down any definitions for the words "love" or "friendship," though.. Who's next? --Wolf oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Wolf wrote:
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When I saw Tracy's question, I resisted answering at first because of the same concerns Wolf has expressed here. That and this stuff is so personal that I'm not sure how appropriate it is to discuss it on a semi-public list like this. I'm a pretty private guy. But I didn't want Wolf to be alone in exposing his feelings, so I will join him here. I'll just stay general enough so I can be comfortable discussing it. My feelings for my friend are similar to the ones Wolf has for his roommate. Not identical but similar. I think different circumstances evoke different emotions, maybe. We didn't start out comfortably. I needed his help and I resented him for it. I was pretty cold to him at first. And he was so incredibly different from me and so *young* that I couldn't see that we had that much in common. But any guff I aimed at him at first just rolled off him like water off a duck's back. It's not like he accepted the abuse; it's more like he saw through it, like he knew that it didn't mean anything about *him,* that it said more about the state of my soul at the time. I was soul-sick and over time he's ministered to me, healing me. But at first, I'm sure our friends saw us as the unlikeliest pair of friends imaginable. We resembled no less than a pairing of Oscar the Grouch and Elmo. But that changed pretty quickly. There is just something so *likeable* about the guy. Wolf mentions wishing he had had a brother and finding one in his friend. Well, I did grow up with a little brother. But due to circumstances I don't wish to discuss, we haven't gotten along too well. When my friend and I became roommates, it was like I got a second chance. Wolf speaks of the two of them 'becoming one.' In my case, I feel as though my roommate is part of me. A vital part. Like if I lost him, I'd die. I love him for his unusual intelligence, enthusiasm, energy, compassion, and loyalty. For the fact that he forges ahead unintimidated by much of anything. In fact, in that sense, he is truly heroic. I can't really trace the whens and hows of the changes the way Wolf did. I just know that they happened. Someone else on the list asked whether friends *should* move to 'the next step.' That is a question I ask myself daily. I don't know what will happen with this friendship. I'm guessing I'm just as nervous as Wolf is in his situation. I sometimes wish it were my roommate who was in my position. Maybe he'd know what to do. Maybe he'd be less daunted by all this stuff. There you have it. --Panther oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998, 7:00 p.m. "Hey, Jim, call Megan." "What about, Chief?" "She's invited us to her place Saturday. Just a small get-together for the holidays with a few friends. She wants to know if you want to go." "Are we supposed to bring anything?" "She didn't say. Oh, yeah, she said we could bring dates. But I told her I haven't been dating much lately so I'll just, y'know, go dateless." "You haven't been dating?" "Not for a while. How about you?" "It's been a long while." "Well, we don't *have* to take anybody. It could be just us." "Fine with me. OK, I'll give her a call. oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
Panther, It is SO cool that you did this! I'm really ... I don't know ... *touched* that you would open up so much just so I wouldn't be so alone out there. Considering how private you seem to be, this must have been really hard! Just wanted to say that. You're a really great guy. I hope your friend appreciates you. --Wolf oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998, 11:45 a.m. "Hi, Jim. Did Sandy talk to you?" "Yeah. He mentioned your party Saturday." "Are the two of you coming?" "Sure. Should we bring anything?" "Maybe a beverage... May I ask a question?" "What, Connor?" "Sandy said that he hasn't been dating lately." "Yeah ... and?" "Do you think he'd appreciate my introducing him to a friend of mine?" "You mean, like a blind date?" "Well, no. Just an introduction. She's a very nice person and quite smart. A student at the university." "Do what you want, Connor. He's an adult. He can decide what he wants. I don't have anything to do with it." "Well, I just thought, since you're so close to him that you might know ..." "Connor, it's not up to me. Can we just get off this?" "Sorry, Jim. I didn't know this topic was ..." "It's closed." "OK. Well, give my regards to Sandy." "I'll do that." oooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooooooOOooo
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Panther wrote:
Well, it's very sort of interesting really. I sort of snuck up on it, first reading some PG-13 stuff, then R, then NC-17. At that point, I found that I was skimming the stuff pretty fast. So I forced myself to slow down and really *read* the passages I had been skimming. And I noticed that the truly graphic stuff started to look all the same, no matter what the rest of the story was about. And there is something about the repetition that makes it less ... shocking .. or something. But then my mind started wandering and I was wondering how accurate the descriptions really were. As I understand it, most of the writers are not men. I mean these are writers without penises or prostates writing about these same body parts. The other thing that just sort of jumped into my mind [and yes, I should have thought about this before, but I didn't] is that I had been thinking about this [when I *could* bring myself to think about this] as *me* doing *him.* But it could go the other way. I mean, to be fair, it *should* go both ways, shouldn't it? So yes I've been doing 'research' and mostly it's made the whole thing just more concrete and less 'unknown.' I guess that's a step. You've never really said how you feel about this stuff. --Wolf
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